Discussion:
Paypal mess
(too old to reply)
Lex van Galen
2004-05-09 22:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.

For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.

Since two days I closed my PP account. And I wrote a mail to all my e-bay
fellows.

To warn them and to try in giving some help fighting the fraudulous actions
introduced by the PP system and /or the people that hacked and hijacked the
system. I am honestly convinced that PP used to be a good, convenient
and -once- even a safe sytem. But: Bob Dylan already sang some 40 years ago:
the times they are a changing!

Here is what I mailed to my e-bay friends and I hope it will be of some help
for you also:



Dear e-bay friends and fountain pen collectors,



You will probably surprised by receiving this mega big e- mail from me. But
I honestly hope you do not feel offended by receiving this long story from
me.

Most of you had (e-mail) contact with me on one ore sometimes more occasions
concerning am e-Bay transaction for buying or selling one ore more fountain
pens. Some recently, some even quite a long time ago. The reason I write to
you is not because I suddenly decided to become a spammer, far from that.
The reason is that I want to make a very serious warning about the practices
of Paypal. We all use (or used) Paypal because it is fast, convenient and .
safe. NO! not at all safe.



Please read what happened to me and lots and lost of other people that use
on line services like e-Bay. It's a long and complicated story, and not a
very funny one I'm afraid.

But please read it carefully and consider the advises I am going to give you
very seriously! It could possibly save you a lot of trouble in near future.



Since a few days I receive strange mails, generated by Paypal (PP). They
proved not to be incidental, or a mistake but structural, for some time now
very strange things are happening with the user accounts of e-bay and other
auction system members that also use PP. (like you and me).



This is what I know:

I found that I ran into a gigantic fraud case concerning the use of Paypal.
It is very well possible that PP itself proves to be a criminal organization
or that the organisation is more or less hijacked by (internet)criminals. I
had some very scary experiences this last week, with PP trying to drain my
account balance. Since 3 days I receive strange fake mails, seemingly coming
from buyers and sellers I had one or more transactions with, some
transactions were even months ago! The mails concern (fake) cancellations
for transactions that were already long time ago paid and delivered, and
also reversals of payments for transactions that were already completed!
Furthermore I received Mails from PP in which they announced a reversal
payment, that was actually effectuated within 24 hours. So my account
balance was debited unauthorized. Suddenly an amount of dollars was just
vanished!



Here is what I think what happens and how PP works:



1)You're doing small scale (amateur) business at e-Bay or similar systems
and at a certain moment you open an account at PP. It is very convenient and
easy and as an international buyer /seller it offers a lot of advantages,
like reasonable fees and free transfer of currency from US$ to Euro or GBP
or whatever. Good administration files and last bet not least: FAST FAST
payment. This is what we all were waiting for!



2)You work with it for some time, say, about one year, with full
satisfaction, business increases, you feel happy.



3) You build up a nice reliability file and there is a good picture of your
cash flow in the system available for PP.



4)You build up a somewhat larger balance to make transactions faster and
easier.



5) Then, especially as a seller when you have your revenues coming in that
PP account, you will start to withdraw amounts to another (real) bank
account in order to limit the balance on the PP account, or just because you
want to use the income for other purposes. (From here it gets tricky!)

6) Therefore you will have to associate your PP account with a real bank
account number because a private Credit Card (CC) does not accept third
party payments (also not from PP). So then PP will know not only your CC
account number, which PP says they need for verification and security
(sic!),but also your regular bank account number. OK. But you do not suspect
anything and you make a retraction of PP funds now and then.



7) Then the door is open for PP! Lots of people (me also) are all of a
sudden getting strange mails, generated by Paypal, all concerning
cancellations of money requests, or 'reversal' payments, what means that
payments done to you by buyers, are reversed to (they say in their mails)
the buyer! Sometimes even amounts of money are deducted from your account
not only once, but 2, 3 or even 4 or more times! You can send mails, fax,
anything, there is never an answer, never any reason why, never a clue!.

Sometimes they will send you an answer from their 'service' dept., that your
question is forwarded to another dept, but these mails are clearly 'demon'
generated.

Telephone numbers are not answered or just cut off and change all the time.
Some people experience that their account is being 'frozen', so they cannot
do payments or retractions of your own money to your own bank. In the time
your account is 'frozen' (as they call it) PP just continues the deductions
and reversals. Even worse: when your PP balance goes negative because of
these actions they will start to debit your CC account. When your CC reaches
it limits they will start a 'legal' procedure to 'get the money they owe
from you' and try to make you pay from other sources!



I know this sounds like a fiction horror story, and it IS a horror story,
except for this: it is NO FICTION! It's REAL, and I'm not Stephen King!



This is what I can tell you to do:

I strongly advice you to take the following actions:

Be sure to do these in the right order to be sure all the doors are closed
for Paypal. Please read all the steps first before you take any action.



1)FIRST thing you must do is to IMMEDIATELY retract all your funds from your
PP account. Set to zero. Make a copy/download of your full history report,
of all the transactions you had with Paypal. It's in your 'My account' tab
when you have logged in at PP.



2)Mail all your contacts that you have with a currently running transaction,
selling or buying. Ask your clients to cancel the payments trough Paypal and
cancel your own payments on Paypal. Work out another payment method with
your clients.



3)When you are sure your PP account balance is set to zero money, terminate
the account. You can do that by logging in at PP, go to 'profiles' and then
choose for the option to close your account. Be careful! If your Credit card
account is ended or blocked before you end PP you cannot end your PP
account! That is one of their tricks to keep the doors open!



4)When you are sure that PP is zero, down and ended, you can try to log on
again. If it is properly ended, your logon & password are no longer
recognized. Realize that all the administrative stuff you filed on PP is
lost for you. So make a download of these files BEFORE you close your
account! If you forgot to do that, lots of transactions can be traced trough
the feedback administration of e-Bay, but it is a lot more work, and you may
loose some data, because not everyone gives feedback.



5) Then (and only then!): Block all your PP associated Credit Card(s) and
Bank Account's. Credit Card is easy: just report lost, and you will have
another card with a new number in two days or so. In case PP is already
debiting your CC, be honest to the CC management, tell what happened and try
if they can make a refund, because of unauthorized use by third parties.
Your Local bank can assist you with your other bank accounts. Go there, make
an appointment with the manager and tell them what happened, and ask them to
help you by starting an investigation to fraudulous transactions reported by
other clients. That's the way to reveal the pattern!



6)If you are already in trouble, experiencing unauthorized deductions etc.:
realize that it can only grow into more serious financial trouble! Go to
your local District Attorney's office, or whatever it is called in your
country, or else to your local Police Agency and ask them to help you to
file an official complaint in order to generate a law suit against Paypal.
Write a abuse complaint and send it to the Safe Harbour Department of e-Bay.
That will learn them what is going on in one of their own sub companies
(sic!).

Prepare a good and clear story for all of them and collect all documents you
can use for evidence that you can find. I.e. your e-mail correspondence with
Paypal and your questions to them why they do this to you. IF they answered
(at all), also the answers!

Copies of your genuine e-mail correspondence with your fellow e-Bayers. Your
(downloaded) PP administration. Listings from 'My e-Bay and listings of your
feedback administration.



7)Write a mail story like I did to you now and send that mail to ALL your
e-Bay and Paypal contacts you EVER had (you can trace most of them back
through your history and feedback files at 'MY E-BAY' Of course you may use
any part of my text if this may help you and if it applies to your
situation. Send it as a 'simple' mail, do not use an attachment, lots of
people have their e-mail system blocked for attachments, because of virus
risk.



This is NO JOKE. This is SERIOUS. I am having a hell of a job now to warn
all my e-Bay clients and fellow fountain pen collectors. It takes and will
take me a bl...beep... lot of time. But this has to be stopped. Next step is
this internet scum plunders our bank accounts. Take contact with your local
bank and all other relations you might have that could be businesslike have
associations with Paypal (such as the Wells Fargo Bank, that handles their
transactions when you retract money from your PP account to your own bank),
and ask them to help you starting an investigation against Paypal!

Only when lots and lots of people are taking action you can expect that
higher authorities will get awake and start official procedures against
these villains!



I honestly think that Paypal started as a good honest organization. But
somehow it was infiltrated by the mob! It's just what you could expect after
the tremendous growth of virus attacks terror, spamming, scamming (what
Paypal is actually doing) and whatever Internet Terrorism this scum will
invent more!



Internet has to become a safe place again! E-bay must be fun again.

To get informed about other Internet user experiences: Read the reviews at
http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and http://www.paypalwarning.com/ There are
other sites you can find on Google with statements about Paypal I would not
believe until I became a victim myself! If you want more info from me you
are invited to mail me again. Don't expect an answer the nex hour or so.
There's a big time gap between USA and Europe!

But I am doing my best. If it is relevant I'll answer.



Lets help each other to clean this mess up!



I'd appreciate it if you can let me know if you received this mail and what
you opinion is on this matter.



Thank you for reading this long story and lots of luck getting rid of
Paypal!



LEX

Greeting you all from The Netherlands.
Licensed to Quill
2004-05-09 23:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Is the problem here that you received a spoof e-mail purporting to be from
Paypal and replied to it thinking that it was actually from paypal and (in
doing so or at some time thereafter) accidentally gave your userID and
password and the fraudsters who ran the fraudulent spoof email then withdrew
all the money from both your account and your credit card account?

(I also received these spoof e-mails supposedly from Paypal but as they
obviously werent from paypal, I ignored them)

I didn't read your very lengthy and interminably triple spaced e-mail but I
agree, paypal should cooperate in getting the fraudulent charges or
trnasactions reversed and should have insurance for this type of thing. They
should not put users through the wringer because of all this.

Licensed to Quill
Post by Lex van Galen
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.
For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.
Since two days I closed my PP account. And I wrote a mail to all my e-bay
fellows.
To warn them and to try in giving some help fighting the fraudulous actions
introduced by the PP system and /or the people that hacked and hijacked the
system. I am honestly convinced that PP used to be a good, convenient
the times they are a changing!
Here is what I mailed to my e-bay friends and I hope it will be of some help
Dear e-bay friends and fountain pen collectors,
You will probably surprised by receiving this mega big e- mail from me. But
I honestly hope you do not feel offended by receiving this long story from
me.
Most of you had (e-mail) contact with me on one ore sometimes more occasions
concerning am e-Bay transaction for buying or selling one ore more fountain
pens. Some recently, some even quite a long time ago. The reason I write to
you is not because I suddenly decided to become a spammer, far from that.
The reason is that I want to make a very serious warning about the practices
of Paypal. We all use (or used) Paypal because it is fast, convenient and .
safe. NO! not at all safe.
Please read what happened to me and lots and lost of other people that use
on line services like e-Bay. It's a long and complicated story, and not a
very funny one I'm afraid.
But please read it carefully and consider the advises I am going to give you
very seriously! It could possibly save you a lot of trouble in near future.
Since a few days I receive strange mails, generated by Paypal (PP). They
proved not to be incidental, or a mistake but structural, for some time now
very strange things are happening with the user accounts of e-bay and other
auction system members that also use PP. (like you and me).
I found that I ran into a gigantic fraud case concerning the use of Paypal.
It is very well possible that PP itself proves to be a criminal organization
or that the organisation is more or less hijacked by (internet)criminals. I
had some very scary experiences this last week, with PP trying to drain my
account balance. Since 3 days I receive strange fake mails, seemingly coming
from buyers and sellers I had one or more transactions with, some
transactions were even months ago! The mails concern (fake) cancellations
for transactions that were already long time ago paid and delivered, and
also reversals of payments for transactions that were already completed!
Furthermore I received Mails from PP in which they announced a reversal
payment, that was actually effectuated within 24 hours. So my account
balance was debited unauthorized. Suddenly an amount of dollars was just
vanished!
1)You're doing small scale (amateur) business at e-Bay or similar systems
and at a certain moment you open an account at PP. It is very convenient and
easy and as an international buyer /seller it offers a lot of advantages,
like reasonable fees and free transfer of currency from US$ to Euro or GBP
or whatever. Good administration files and last bet not least: FAST FAST
payment. This is what we all were waiting for!
2)You work with it for some time, say, about one year, with full
satisfaction, business increases, you feel happy.
3) You build up a nice reliability file and there is a good picture of your
cash flow in the system available for PP.
4)You build up a somewhat larger balance to make transactions faster and
easier.
5) Then, especially as a seller when you have your revenues coming in that
PP account, you will start to withdraw amounts to another (real) bank
account in order to limit the balance on the PP account, or just because you
want to use the income for other purposes. (From here it gets tricky!)
6) Therefore you will have to associate your PP account with a real bank
account number because a private Credit Card (CC) does not accept third
party payments (also not from PP). So then PP will know not only your CC
account number, which PP says they need for verification and security
(sic!),but also your regular bank account number. OK. But you do not suspect
anything and you make a retraction of PP funds now and then.
7) Then the door is open for PP! Lots of people (me also) are all of a
sudden getting strange mails, generated by Paypal, all concerning
cancellations of money requests, or 'reversal' payments, what means that
payments done to you by buyers, are reversed to (they say in their mails)
the buyer! Sometimes even amounts of money are deducted from your account
not only once, but 2, 3 or even 4 or more times! You can send mails, fax,
anything, there is never an answer, never any reason why, never a clue!.
Sometimes they will send you an answer from their 'service' dept., that your
question is forwarded to another dept, but these mails are clearly 'demon'
generated.
Telephone numbers are not answered or just cut off and change all the time.
Some people experience that their account is being 'frozen', so they cannot
do payments or retractions of your own money to your own bank. In the time
your account is 'frozen' (as they call it) PP just continues the deductions
and reversals. Even worse: when your PP balance goes negative because of
these actions they will start to debit your CC account. When your CC reaches
it limits they will start a 'legal' procedure to 'get the money they owe
from you' and try to make you pay from other sources!
I know this sounds like a fiction horror story, and it IS a horror story,
except for this: it is NO FICTION! It's REAL, and I'm not Stephen King!
Be sure to do these in the right order to be sure all the doors are closed
for Paypal. Please read all the steps first before you take any action.
1)FIRST thing you must do is to IMMEDIATELY retract all your funds from your
PP account. Set to zero. Make a copy/download of your full history report,
of all the transactions you had with Paypal. It's in your 'My account' tab
when you have logged in at PP.
2)Mail all your contacts that you have with a currently running transaction,
selling or buying. Ask your clients to cancel the payments trough Paypal and
cancel your own payments on Paypal. Work out another payment method with
your clients.
3)When you are sure your PP account balance is set to zero money, terminate
the account. You can do that by logging in at PP, go to 'profiles' and then
choose for the option to close your account. Be careful! If your Credit card
account is ended or blocked before you end PP you cannot end your PP
account! That is one of their tricks to keep the doors open!
4)When you are sure that PP is zero, down and ended, you can try to log on
again. If it is properly ended, your logon & password are no longer
recognized. Realize that all the administrative stuff you filed on PP is
lost for you. So make a download of these files BEFORE you close your
account! If you forgot to do that, lots of transactions can be traced trough
the feedback administration of e-Bay, but it is a lot more work, and you may
loose some data, because not everyone gives feedback.
5) Then (and only then!): Block all your PP associated Credit Card(s) and
Bank Account's. Credit Card is easy: just report lost, and you will have
another card with a new number in two days or so. In case PP is already
debiting your CC, be honest to the CC management, tell what happened and try
if they can make a refund, because of unauthorized use by third parties.
Your Local bank can assist you with your other bank accounts. Go there, make
an appointment with the manager and tell them what happened, and ask them to
help you by starting an investigation to fraudulous transactions reported by
other clients. That's the way to reveal the pattern!
realize that it can only grow into more serious financial trouble! Go to
your local District Attorney's office, or whatever it is called in your
country, or else to your local Police Agency and ask them to help you to
file an official complaint in order to generate a law suit against Paypal.
Write a abuse complaint and send it to the Safe Harbour Department of e-Bay.
That will learn them what is going on in one of their own sub companies
(sic!).
Prepare a good and clear story for all of them and collect all documents you
can use for evidence that you can find. I.e. your e-mail correspondence with
Paypal and your questions to them why they do this to you. IF they answered
(at all), also the answers!
Copies of your genuine e-mail correspondence with your fellow e-Bayers. Your
(downloaded) PP administration. Listings from 'My e-Bay and listings of your
feedback administration.
7)Write a mail story like I did to you now and send that mail to ALL your
e-Bay and Paypal contacts you EVER had (you can trace most of them back
through your history and feedback files at 'MY E-BAY' Of course you may use
any part of my text if this may help you and if it applies to your
situation. Send it as a 'simple' mail, do not use an attachment, lots of
people have their e-mail system blocked for attachments, because of virus
risk.
This is NO JOKE. This is SERIOUS. I am having a hell of a job now to warn
all my e-Bay clients and fellow fountain pen collectors. It takes and will
take me a bl...beep... lot of time. But this has to be stopped. Next step is
this internet scum plunders our bank accounts. Take contact with your local
bank and all other relations you might have that could be businesslike have
associations with Paypal (such as the Wells Fargo Bank, that handles their
transactions when you retract money from your PP account to your own bank),
and ask them to help you starting an investigation against Paypal!
Only when lots and lots of people are taking action you can expect that
higher authorities will get awake and start official procedures against
these villains!
I honestly think that Paypal started as a good honest organization. But
somehow it was infiltrated by the mob! It's just what you could expect after
the tremendous growth of virus attacks terror, spamming, scamming (what
Paypal is actually doing) and whatever Internet Terrorism this scum will
invent more!
Internet has to become a safe place again! E-bay must be fun again.
To get informed about other Internet user experiences: Read the reviews at
http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and http://www.paypalwarning.com/ There are
other sites you can find on Google with statements about Paypal I would not
believe until I became a victim myself! If you want more info from me you
are invited to mail me again. Don't expect an answer the nex hour or so.
There's a big time gap between USA and Europe!
But I am doing my best. If it is relevant I'll answer.
Lets help each other to clean this mess up!
I'd appreciate it if you can let me know if you received this mail and what
you opinion is on this matter.
Thank you for reading this long story and lots of luck getting rid of
Paypal!
LEX
Greeting you all from The Netherlands.
Lex van Galen
2004-05-10 07:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Sorry for the triple spaces. Because it IS a lengthy mail I wrote it in
MSWord, so I automatically used some more make up than I normally use in
direct mail like this one, I'm just answering now in the mail browser.
It's lengthy because the problem is really serious! This 'could' grow in one
of the largest banking frauds ever to happen to a large amount of private
users! In that case I found a few words more worth the trouble. Writing
them. And, for this commuity, reading them.
About spoof. No, it were no spoof mails, the were real. I checked! That's
why I took the conclusion this case really sucks! So draw your own
conclusions.
Keep in touch if you like.
Excuse my English, It's not my mother tongue, but I try to do my best :-)
Lex
Post by Licensed to Quill
Is the problem here that you received a spoof e-mail purporting to be from
Paypal and replied to it thinking that it was actually from paypal and (in
doing so or at some time thereafter) accidentally gave your userID and
password and the fraudsters who ran the fraudulent spoof email then withdrew
all the money from both your account and your credit card account?
(I also received these spoof e-mails supposedly from Paypal but as they
obviously werent from paypal, I ignored them)
I didn't read your very lengthy and interminably triple spaced e-mail but I
agree, paypal should cooperate in getting the fraudulent charges or
trnasactions reversed and should have insurance for this type of thing. They
should not put users through the wringer because of all this.
Licensed to Quill
R. Paul Martin
2004-05-16 07:07:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 May 2004 19:49:32 -0400, "Licensed to Quill"
Post by Licensed to Quill
Is the problem here that you received a spoof e-mail purporting to be from
Paypal and replied to it thinking that it was actually from paypal and (in
doing so or at some time thereafter) accidentally gave your userID and
password and the fraudsters who ran the fraudulent spoof email then withdrew
all the money from both your account and your credit card account?
(I also received these spoof e-mails supposedly from Paypal but as they
obviously werent from paypal, I ignored them)
....
I get these too, and I don't even have a PayPal account!

What the scammers are doing is called "phishing."

Besides the fact that I've never had a PayPal account there was also
the up front demand for a lot of serious bank information plus a
warning that I'd lose my account if I didn't reply by September 31,
2003. Sometimes it's a good thing that the brats aren't educated
anymore.
Earl Camembert
2004-05-16 07:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Paul Martin
On Sun, 9 May 2004 19:49:32 -0400, "Licensed to Quill"
Post by Licensed to Quill
Is the problem here that you received a spoof e-mail purporting to be from
Paypal and replied to it thinking that it was actually from paypal and (in
doing so or at some time thereafter) accidentally gave your userID and
password and the fraudsters who ran the fraudulent spoof email then withdrew
all the money from both your account and your credit card account?
(I also received these spoof e-mails supposedly from Paypal but as they
obviously werent from paypal, I ignored them)
....
I get these too, and I don't even have a PayPal account!
What the scammers are doing is called "phishing."
Besides the fact that I've never had a PayPal account there was also
the up front demand for a lot of serious bank information plus a
warning that I'd lose my account if I didn't reply by September 31,
2003. Sometimes it's a good thing that the brats aren't educated
anymore.
They are smart enough to fool one tenth of one percent of the
recipients of there spam. That is all it takes.
Bluesea
2004-05-16 18:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Earl Camembert
Post by R. Paul Martin
I get these too, and I don't even have a PayPal account!
What the scammers are doing is called "phishing."
Besides the fact that I've never had a PayPal account there was also
the up front demand for a lot of serious bank information plus a
warning that I'd lose my account if I didn't reply by September 31,
2003. Sometimes it's a good thing that the brats aren't educated
anymore.
They are smart enough to fool one tenth of one percent of the
recipients of there spam. That is all it takes.
Those must be their classmates who also never learned that Sept. only has 30
days.
--
~~Bluesea~~puzzled over the year 2003 deadline since we're in '04
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.
Quarter Horseman
2004-05-10 00:28:57 UTC
Permalink
In addition to what LTQ said, people believing their Paypal accounts or
any other accounts have been intruded on should make absolutely sure
their systems have not been compromised in some fashion. IOW, systems
patched with the latest security updates from your operating-system
vendor, and AV definitions up-to-date. Many of the newer worms and
viruses capture keystrokes (e.g. entered credit-card numbers, entered
Paypal account numbers and passwords, and so on) and send them to
predetermined places, usually w/o giving any evidence of this to the
user unless he's paying really close attention and has the technical
knowledge even to be able to detect system behavior out of normal bounds
(probably less than 5% of most home computer users). There are plenty
of places online that provide information and advice in this area.
Lex van Galen
2004-05-10 08:03:06 UTC
Permalink
I checked my system, thank you. I am an ICT engeneer myself and I know what
you are talking about. Normally I would think that you are right, but there
was actually taken money from my PP balance. The mails I received in which
that was confirmed were real, very real. I checked! I wrote with e-Bay.
(Safe Harbour) They checked for me and the scammer that triggered the action
was really a scammer and is now, as e-Bay states polightly: 'not longer a
registered user'
So now I still hope they will start to investigate PP, as lots of users have
asked them in the meantime. After all, it's one of their own sub companies!
I'm not joking when I say that, if this fraud continues, it could as well be
the end of e-Bay and similar systems!
Lex
Hoping for better times, and still alert.
Post by Quarter Horseman
In addition to what LTQ said, people believing their Paypal accounts or
any other accounts have been intruded on should make absolutely sure
their systems have not been compromised in some fashion. IOW, systems
patched with the latest security updates from your operating-system
vendor, and AV definitions up-to-date. Many of the newer worms and
viruses capture keystrokes (e.g. entered credit-card numbers, entered
Paypal account numbers and passwords, and so on) and send them to
predetermined places, usually w/o giving any evidence of this to the
user unless he's paying really close attention and has the technical
knowledge even to be able to detect system behavior out of normal bounds
(probably less than 5% of most home computer users). There are plenty
of places online that provide information and advice in this area.
Earl Camembert
2004-05-10 04:50:48 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 May 2004 00:51:56 +0200, "Lex van Galen"
Post by Lex van Galen
Write a abuse complaint and send it to the Safe Harbour Department of e-Bay.
e-Bay owns PayPal, they are one.
Lex van Galen
2004-05-10 09:19:11 UTC
Permalink
I did, thank you, and they kicked out the scammer that triggered my little
fraude case. (lost $40, 'only'). But the core is IN PP, I am sure. Anyway,
complaing at e-Bay still helps a bit, I'm glad to experience. Complaining at
PP is pearls before swine.
Although I closed PP now, I'm still not sure if my regular account is safe.
Going to talk at my local bank office today. Think it is safe though.
Legislation on bank security especially concerning e-commerce in EU 'Euro'
countries is somewhat tougher than in US. And in NL a lot tougher than in
some other EU members. So I am not desperated... yet.
Lex
Hoping for better times, and still alert.
Post by Earl Camembert
On Mon, 10 May 2004 00:51:56 +0200, "Lex van Galen"
Post by Lex van Galen
Write a abuse complaint and send it to the Safe Harbour Department of e-Bay.
e-Bay owns PayPal, they are one.
Pensive
2004-05-10 07:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Never, never respond to an e-mail that seems to be from PayPal. Even
if it is from Paypal, they can give you the same information when you
log in.

Use a credit card with PayPal. If there is a problem you can refuse
to pay.
Post by Lex van Galen
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.
For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.
Since two days I closed my PP account. And I wrote a mail to all my e-bay
fellows.
To warn them and to try in giving some help fighting the fraudulous actions
introduced by the PP system and /or the people that hacked and hijacked the
system. I am honestly convinced that PP used to be a good, convenient
the times they are a changing!
Here is what I mailed to my e-bay friends and I hope it will be of some help
Lex van Galen
2004-05-10 09:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, your are right, but one has to learn. Now I do not use PP anymore
at all. Sometimes CC, if its dead safe, or else the good old envelope with a
few bank notes, concealed in a black printed letter. Never went wrong in the
good old days of snail mail, when people still used fountain pens for their
communication.... :-P
Lex
Hoping for better times, and still alert.
Post by Pensive
Never, never respond to an e-mail that seems to be from PayPal. Even
if it is from Paypal, they can give you the same information when you
log in.
Use a credit card with PayPal. If there is a problem you can refuse
to pay.
Post by Lex van Galen
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.
For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.
Since two days I closed my PP account. And I wrote a mail to all my e-bay
fellows.
To warn them and to try in giving some help fighting the fraudulous actions
introduced by the PP system and /or the people that hacked and hijacked the
system. I am honestly convinced that PP used to be a good, convenient
the times they are a changing!
Here is what I mailed to my e-bay friends and I hope it will be of some help
Tim McNamara
2004-05-10 20:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pensive
Never, never respond to an e-mail that seems to be from PayPal.
Even if it is from Paypal, they can give you the same information
when you log in.
That is correct. I forward all e-mails purporting to be from PayPal
or ebay to their respective addresses for such spoofs.
Post by Pensive
Use a credit card with PayPal. If there is a problem you can refuse
to pay.
I have a non-confirmed account because I will not, under any
circumstances, give them my bank information. There is utterly no
defensible reason why they should have that information unless you are
authorizing them to move money into and out of your bank account,
which IMHO is a very, very bad idea.

If someone hacks into PayPal and uses your credit card information,
your liability is limited by law to $50 (for US credit cards, anyway).
Many people don't know this and buy- from their credit card company-
insurance against this. All they are doing is paying to protect the
credit card company, not themselves. You can be sure the credit card
companies are insured against fraud losses on their own, without the
cardholder paying for supplemental coverage.

If someone hacks into PayPal and uses your bank information, you will
probably be shit-outta-luck and outa money. You'll have almost no
chance of getting that money back. Thus I will not provide PayPal
with my banking information. Ever.
Earl Camembert
2004-05-11 12:35:57 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:39:42 -0500, Tim McNamara
Post by Tim McNamara
Post by Pensive
Never, never respond to an e-mail that seems to be from PayPal.
Even if it is from Paypal, they can give you the same information
when you log in.
That is correct. I forward all e-mails purporting to be from PayPal
or ebay to their respective addresses for such spoofs.
Post by Pensive
Use a credit card with PayPal. If there is a problem you can refuse
to pay.
I have a non-confirmed account because I will not, under any
circumstances, give them my bank information. There is utterly no
defensible reason why they should have that information unless you are
authorizing them to move money into and out of your bank account,
which IMHO is a very, very bad idea.
If someone hacks into PayPal and uses your credit card information,
your liability is limited by law to $50 (for US credit cards, anyway).
Many people don't know this and buy- from their credit card company-
insurance against this. All they are doing is paying to protect the
credit card company, not themselves. You can be sure the credit card
companies are insured against fraud losses on their own, without the
cardholder paying for supplemental coverage.
If someone hacks into PayPal and uses your bank information, you will
probably be shit-outta-luck and outa money. You'll have almost no
chance of getting that money back. Thus I will not provide PayPal
with my banking information. Ever.
PayPal forced me into opening a bank account just for them. I would
not give them my real account though.
Dave J
2004-05-13 20:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim McNamara
If someone hacks into PayPal and uses your bank information, you will
probably be shit-outta-luck and outa money. You'll have almost no
chance of getting that money back. Thus I will not provide PayPal
with my banking information. Ever.
You said it! When I reached my $2000 "limit" with Paypal, I cancelled my
account and opened another. It will be a cold day in you know where before
I give them my bank account information.

Dave
Pensive
2004-05-11 21:05:35 UTC
Permalink
OTOH:

While I am very careful using PayPal (and you should be too), I
rarely bid on an item where the seller does not take it. I have paid
a 5-10% premium to a seller to use PayPal. It is cheap, convenient
and offers more protection than anything other than a face-to-face
meeting. I used PayPal's fraud complaint service to get a lame seller
to get her act together (at least for my sale).
Sellers take note: at least some people will only bid, and often
bid higher, if you take PayPal. While some good people have had
problems with PayPal a lot off scammers have too. I look very
carefully at sellers who do not take it.

jt
Post by Lex van Galen
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.
For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.
Patrick Lamb
2004-05-12 02:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pensive
While I am very careful using PayPal (and you should be too), I
rarely bid on an item where the seller does not take it. I have paid
a 5-10% premium to a seller to use PayPal. It is cheap, convenient
and offers more protection than anything other than a face-to-face
meeting. I used PayPal's fraud complaint service to get a lame seller
to get her act together (at least for my sale).
Sellers take note: at least some people will only bid, and often
bid higher, if you take PayPal. While some good people have had
problems with PayPal a lot off scammers have too. I look very
carefully at sellers who do not take it.
YMMV. I was impressed at how badly pp's fraud complaint service
worked. Their response to me was basically, "You got a box. We wash
our hands of the matter." I won't bid on anything that requires me to
use pp.

Pat
Lex van Galen
2004-05-17 07:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Lamb
YMMV. I was impressed at how badly pp's fraud complaint service
worked. Their response to me was basically, "You got a box. We wash
our hands of the matter." I won't bid on anything that requires me to
use pp.
Pat
I think you hit the right point there, Pat. That was the topic of the
thread I started. Of course I NEVER, NEVER answer spoof, or spam or scam or
whatever you may call it. But there WAS $40,- deducted from my account.
Without an explanation. And Paypal 's 2 answer mails (REAL, I checked!) were
totally irrellevant and brutal. It's not the system that's wrong. In fact,
what PP offers, is what we all were waiting for! It's the organization that
sucks! That's why I wrote my long story. To warn you what's really
happening. Not about suckers that get robbed by other suckers because they
do not know how to use e-payment systems in a safe way.
BTW, I was sorry to read that sellers who do not offer PP service (for
obvious reasons IMHO) are distrusted. I thinks that turning the problem
upside down. Of course it's not that easy as a PP payment, but a friendly 1
to 1 correspondence and than the good old envelop with some bank notes still
works. (for me).
Thanks for all the response. I can only hope that some of us are wide awake
now.
Lex
Nancy Handy
2004-05-18 02:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lex van Galen
BTW, I was sorry to read that sellers who do not offer PP service (for
obvious reasons IMHO) are distrusted.
Not all of us feel that way.
Count me as one of the people who will not open a paypal account and
will not do business with anyone who ONLY takes paypal. I don't trust
paypal, and I don't trust people who only take paypal.

Nancy
JP
2004-05-18 12:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nancy Handy
Post by Lex van Galen
BTW, I was sorry to read that sellers who do not offer PP service (for
obvious reasons IMHO) are distrusted.
Not all of us feel that way.
Count me as one of the people who will not open a paypal account and
will not do business with anyone who ONLY takes paypal. I don't trust
paypal, and I don't trust people who only take paypal.
Nancy
I've used paypal for years. First opened the account to buy some boomerangs
from a maker. Never had a problem with paypal, only the occasional
seller.
It's been linked directly to a checking account for years without incident.
My search parameters include "sellers who take paypal"
and I've opted out of auctions when a seller won't take paypal.

I wish their protection was as good as Visa but I think in time it will be,
meanwhile I'm willing to take the risk of the occasional crooked seller,
I've come across only two so far, and their scam had nothing to do with
paypal.
I buy a lot online with credit cards as well, from peanuts to furniture,
I do my banking online, I've got online investment accounts.
I've heard caveats about all of it. Nothing I've read here has made me
concerned.

People hate ebay, paypal, the phone company and cablevision.
And I believe that in each individual case they have a reason.
But I do not buy the idea of institutionalized evil or criminal intent in
this instance.
Lots of things I could be wrong about, hell, in nine presidential
elections
I've never picked the right one. And maybe paypal is another Enron.
I doubt it though. As in all things YMMV.

JP
j***@gmail.com
2013-10-04 03:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lex van Galen
Just like most of you I am a fountain pen lover and collector.
For that reason I regularly use e-Bay. And Paypal. until a week ago.
Since two days I closed my PP account. And I wrote a mail to all my e-bay
fellows.
To warn them and to try in giving some help fighting the fraudulous actions
introduced by the PP system and /or the people that hacked and hijacked the
system. I am honestly convinced that PP used to be a good, convenient
the times they are a changing!
Here is what I mailed to my e-bay friends and I hope it will be of some help
Dear e-bay friends and fountain pen collectors,
You will probably surprised by receiving this mega big e- mail from me. But
I honestly hope you do not feel offended by receiving this long story from
me.
Most of you had (e-mail) contact with me on one ore sometimes more occasions
concerning am e-Bay transaction for buying or selling one ore more fountain
pens. Some recently, some even quite a long time ago. The reason I write to
you is not because I suddenly decided to become a spammer, far from that.
The reason is that I want to make a very serious warning about the practices
of Paypal. We all use (or used) Paypal because it is fast, convenient and .
safe. NO! not at all safe.
Please read what happened to me and lots and lost of other people that use
on line services like e-Bay. It's a long and complicated story, and not a
very funny one I'm afraid.
But please read it carefully and consider the advises I am going to give you
very seriously! It could possibly save you a lot of trouble in near future.
Since a few days I receive strange mails, generated by Paypal (PP). They
proved not to be incidental, or a mistake but structural, for some time now
very strange things are happening with the user accounts of e-bay and other
auction system members that also use PP. (like you and me).
I found that I ran into a gigantic fraud case concerning the use of Paypal.
It is very well possible that PP itself proves to be a criminal organization
or that the organisation is more or less hijacked by (internet)criminals. I
had some very scary experiences this last week, with PP trying to drain my
account balance. Since 3 days I receive strange fake mails, seemingly coming
from buyers and sellers I had one or more transactions with, some
transactions were even months ago! The mails concern (fake) cancellations
for transactions that were already long time ago paid and delivered, and
also reversals of payments for transactions that were already completed!
Furthermore I received Mails from PP in which they announced a reversal
payment, that was actually effectuated within 24 hours. So my account
balance was debited unauthorized. Suddenly an amount of dollars was just
vanished!
1)You're doing small scale (amateur) business at e-Bay or similar systems
and at a certain moment you open an account at PP. It is very convenient and
easy and as an international buyer /seller it offers a lot of advantages,
like reasonable fees and free transfer of currency from US$ to Euro or GBP
or whatever. Good administration files and last bet not least: FAST FAST
payment. This is what we all were waiting for!
2)You work with it for some time, say, about one year, with full
satisfaction, business increases, you feel happy.
3) You build up a nice reliability file and there is a good picture of your
cash flow in the system available for PP.
4)You build up a somewhat larger balance to make transactions faster and
easier.
5) Then, especially as a seller when you have your revenues coming in that
PP account, you will start to withdraw amounts to another (real) bank
account in order to limit the balance on the PP account, or just because you
want to use the income for other purposes. (From here it gets tricky!)
6) Therefore you will have to associate your PP account with a real bank
account number because a private Credit Card (CC) does not accept third
party payments (also not from PP). So then PP will know not only your CC
account number, which PP says they need for verification and security
(sic!),but also your regular bank account number. OK. But you do not suspect
anything and you make a retraction of PP funds now and then.
7) Then the door is open for PP! Lots of people (me also) are all of a
sudden getting strange mails, generated by Paypal, all concerning
cancellations of money requests, or 'reversal' payments, what means that
payments done to you by buyers, are reversed to (they say in their mails)
the buyer! Sometimes even amounts of money are deducted from your account
not only once, but 2, 3 or even 4 or more times! You can send mails, fax,
anything, there is never an answer, never any reason why, never a clue!.
Sometimes they will send you an answer from their 'service' dept., that your
question is forwarded to another dept, but these mails are clearly 'demon'
generated.
Telephone numbers are not answered or just cut off and change all the time.
Some people experience that their account is being 'frozen', so they cannot
do payments or retractions of your own money to your own bank. In the time
your account is 'frozen' (as they call it) PP just continues the deductions
and reversals. Even worse: when your PP balance goes negative because of
these actions they will start to debit your CC account. When your CC reaches
it limits they will start a 'legal' procedure to 'get the money they owe
from you' and try to make you pay from other sources!
I know this sounds like a fiction horror story, and it IS a horror story,
except for this: it is NO FICTION! It's REAL, and I'm not Stephen King!
Be sure to do these in the right order to be sure all the doors are closed
for Paypal. Please read all the steps first before you take any action.
1)FIRST thing you must do is to IMMEDIATELY retract all your funds from your
PP account. Set to zero. Make a copy/download of your full history report,
of all the transactions you had with Paypal. It's in your 'My account' tab
when you have logged in at PP.
2)Mail all your contacts that you have with a currently running transaction,
selling or buying. Ask your clients to cancel the payments trough Paypal and
cancel your own payments on Paypal. Work out another payment method with
your clients.
3)When you are sure your PP account balance is set to zero money, terminate
the account. You can do that by logging in at PP, go to 'profiles' and then
choose for the option to close your account. Be careful! If your Credit card
account is ended or blocked before you end PP you cannot end your PP
account! That is one of their tricks to keep the doors open!
4)When you are sure that PP is zero, down and ended, you can try to log on
again. If it is properly ended, your logon & password are no longer
recognized. Realize that all the administrative stuff you filed on PP is
lost for you. So make a download of these files BEFORE you close your
account! If you forgot to do that, lots of transactions can be traced trough
the feedback administration of e-Bay, but it is a lot more work, and you may
loose some data, because not everyone gives feedback.
5) Then (and only then!): Block all your PP associated Credit Card(s) and
Bank Account's. Credit Card is easy: just report lost, and you will have
another card with a new number in two days or so. In case PP is already
debiting your CC, be honest to the CC management, tell what happened and try
if they can make a refund, because of unauthorized use by third parties.
Your Local bank can assist you with your other bank accounts. Go there, make
an appointment with the manager and tell them what happened, and ask them to
help you by starting an investigation to fraudulous transactions reported by
other clients. That's the way to reveal the pattern!
realize that it can only grow into more serious financial trouble! Go to
your local District Attorney's office, or whatever it is called in your
country, or else to your local Police Agency and ask them to help you to
file an official complaint in order to generate a law suit against Paypal.
Write a abuse complaint and send it to the Safe Harbour Department of e-Bay.
That will learn them what is going on in one of their own sub companies
(sic!).
Prepare a good and clear story for all of them and collect all documents you
can use for evidence that you can find. I.e. your e-mail correspondence with
Paypal and your questions to them why they do this to you. IF they answered
(at all), also the answers!
Copies of your genuine e-mail correspondence with your fellow e-Bayers. Your
(downloaded) PP administration. Listings from 'My e-Bay and listings of your
feedback administration.
7)Write a mail story like I did to you now and send that mail to ALL your
e-Bay and Paypal contacts you EVER had (you can trace most of them back
through your history and feedback files at 'MY E-BAY' Of course you may use
any part of my text if this may help you and if it applies to your
situation. Send it as a 'simple' mail, do not use an attachment, lots of
people have their e-mail system blocked for attachments, because of virus
risk.
This is NO JOKE. This is SERIOUS. I am having a hell of a job now to warn
all my e-Bay clients and fellow fountain pen collectors. It takes and will
take me a bl...beep... lot of time. But this has to be stopped. Next step is
this internet scum plunders our bank accounts. Take contact with your local
bank and all other relations you might have that could be businesslike have
associations with Paypal (such as the Wells Fargo Bank, that handles their
transactions when you retract money from your PP account to your own bank),
and ask them to help you starting an investigation against Paypal!
Only when lots and lots of people are taking action you can expect that
higher authorities will get awake and start official procedures against
these villains!
I honestly think that Paypal started as a good honest organization. But
somehow it was infiltrated by the mob! It's just what you could expect after
the tremendous growth of virus attacks terror, spamming, scamming (what
Paypal is actually doing) and whatever Internet Terrorism this scum will
invent more!
Internet has to become a safe place again! E-bay must be fun again.
To get informed about other Internet user experiences: Read the reviews at
http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and http://www.paypalwarning.com/ There are
other sites you can find on Google with statements about Paypal I would not
believe until I became a victim myself! If you want more info from me you
are invited to mail me again. Don't expect an answer the nex hour or so.
There's a big time gap between USA and Europe!
But I am doing my best. If it is relevant I'll answer.
Lets help each other to clean this mess up!
I'd appreciate it if you can let me know if you received this mail and what
you opinion is on this matter.
Thank you for reading this long story and lots of luck getting rid of
Paypal!
LEX
Greeting you all from The Netherlands.
Dear Lex<,
Thank you for your informative letter. Interestingly, I just completed my first transaction with PP, so I am quite distressed by what I have read. It will most likely be my LAST due to your information. I found the whole procedure tiring, confusing, and in the required a phone call to straighten out the payment.
Again thank you for your letter. By the way, I am also from Holland-a very small town near the Belgium border, cakked Niewefeilt(I don't think I spelled it right). I was there in 1969, saw where my great grandfather was born, and one of my dad's best friend's father lived-house still living. He had not been there in 90 yrs and drew us a map of the town and it was spot on...he cried when he saw the picture we took of his house.
Again, thank you for the information; I will put it to good use! Jenny
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