Extremely slow drying of Noodlers Black Ink

[Roo]

I have some Noodlers Black ink which I bought about 14 months ago. It
has never been a particularly fast drying ink, but in the last few
months it has become incredibly slow. The worst is in a Molskine diary
where I have had it blot after 8 hours. Even in the hardbound books I
use at work (like an Accounts Ledger, but a notebook) it can take a
couple of hours to dry. Sticky notes have smudged after 1/2 an hour.
It dries fine on photocopy paper. The air has been very dry over this
period. Spilled water will dry in an hour. I use fine nibbed pens.
Does anyone know what may have happened, or what I could do to "fix"
this problem.

[Gordon Mattingly]

I'm sorry that I have no practical advice except to switch to another ink. I
too have tried to use Noodler's black in Moleskine journals and found it
totally unsatisfactory in both drying time and bleed through (with both fine
and medium nibs). I can testify to your experience with the same on
photocopy or bulk papers. It seems to perform better, but is still very slow
to dry. On the other hand, I have been very satisfied with Noodler's Air
Corps blue-black for use in Moleskines. I have also used Diamine blue-black
and Prussian blue with good results.

Gordon Mattingly

[L&R]

On the other hand, I have been very satisfied with Noodler's Air Corps
blue-black for use in Moleskines. I have also used Diamine blue-black
and Prussian blue with good results.

Since you used both of them, how do Diamine Prussian Blue and Diamine
Blue Black compare in terms of color, darkness, and intensity? I tried
the former but never the latter.

Thanks in advance. Bye.

Luca

[Gordon Mattingly]

The Diamine blue-black is more intense than the Prussian blue which I would
describe as a blue-gray. Each has its own appeal and I keep pens at hand
loaded with both colors.

The Noodler's Air Corps blue-black has just a hint of blue in comparison
with the Diamine blue-black. It is less intense, and has what I can only
describe as an "old fashioned" appearance once put to paper. I've always
thought that Air Corps would give particularly interesting results if used
in conjunction with one of the classic flexible nibs.

Gordon Mattingly

On the other hand, I have been very satisfied with Noodler's Air Corps
blue-black for use in Moleskines. I have also used Diamine blue-black and
Prussian blue with good results.

Since you used both of them, how do Diamine Prussian Blue and Diamine Blue
Black compare in terms of color, darkness, and intensity? I tried the
former but never the latter.
Thanks in advance. Bye.
Luca

[Roo]

I think I have worked out what is causing the very slow drying. I
tried some fresh ink, and it both dried much more quickly, as well as
flowing much better (much wetter nib, smoother line). My guess is that
the very dry conditions are causing a surfactant to evaporate from the
ink, resulting in a higher surface tension. This would both reduce the
flow in the pen, and cause slow drying. To prove this I guess I need
to try adding some additional surfactant to the ink and seeing if it
comes good.

[BL]

Post by Roo
I think I have worked out what is causing the
very slow drying. I tried some fresh ink,
and it both dried much more quickly, as well
as flowing much better (much wetter nib,
smoother line). My guess is that the very
dry conditions are causing a surfactant to
evaporate from the ink, resulting in a higher
surface tension. This would both reduce the
flow in the pen, and cause slow drying. To
prove this I guess I need to try adding some
additional surfactant to the ink and seeing
if it comes good.

I'd think the water in the ink would evaporate faster than the surfactants,
humectorants, dyes or any other constituent. -- B

[Roo]

Post by BL
I'd think the water in the ink would evaporate faster than the surfactants,
humectorants, dyes or any other constituent. -- B

True, but water evaporation would not greatly increase drying time,
surfactants could.

I have done some more experimentation. I found if I took the bottle of
ink and shook it vigorously for 5 minutes the ink both became a lot
darker, a nice solid black, and it dried quickly. A short shake was
not enough. Looking back through my diary, I have not had as solid a
black at all this year. After being in the pen a few days, the ink has
become a less solid black, and the drying has become slow again. This
suggests the mechanism is not evaporation, but perhaps some sort of
settling or dissolution effect. I am not going to shake the pen to see
it it comes good in the pen!

I think it is time to abandon Noodlers black, this is the last nail in
the coffin. The cellulose reactive ink is a great idea, but the ink
has too many shortcommings for my uses.

[Brian Ketterling]

Post by Roo
I think it is time to abandon Noodlers black, this is the last nail in
the coffin. The cellulose reactive ink is a great idea, but the ink
has too many shortcommings for my uses.

Although shaking once a year isn't *too* bad...

Brian
--

[Roo]

Post by Brian Ketterling
Although shaking once a year isn't *too* bad...

If it stayed good after shaking, I would consider continuing to use it.
However after a few days in the pen it is reverting to its old
behaviour. This means I would need to refill the pen every few days to
keep it working adequately. Not worth the trouble. Especially given
the other problems I have had. I have had no problems with the wide
range of other brands of ink I have used.

[Brian Ketterling]

Post by Roo

Post by Brian Ketterling
Although shaking once a year isn't *too* bad...

If it stayed good after shaking, I would consider continuing to use it.
However...
Not worth the trouble... given
the other problems I have had.

Well, I wouldn't try to tie you to one brand of ink :) -- but out of
curiosity, what problems have you had with it, and did they all occur with
the same bottle of ink, and/or in the same pen?

Brian
--

[Roo]

Post by Brian Ketterling
Well, I wouldn't try to tie you to one brand of ink :) -- but out of
curiosity, what problems have you had with it, and did they all occur with
the same bottle of ink, and/or in the same pen?

I have had 3 different types of Noodler's ink, (5 bottles in total).
Tried various ones in a range of pens, Parker, Waterman, Rotring, Lamy,
Pelikan, and a hand crafted pen based on a German mechanism.

All inks have had flow issues in several of the pens (i.e. each ink has
not flowed properly in more than one of the above pens). The black
seemed the best behaved, but has its own quirk, it tends to get "stuck"
in the converter. People at work have become used to me tapping the
converter on the side of the desk, trying to get the ink to flow down
from the top of the converter. This only happens from time to time,
and is more a niusance than anything.

Other issues have been the Walnut ink had a tendency to simply stop in
the pen, like it had dried out, even in the middle of a line of
writing. I have found that forcing the ink up into the mechanism will
restart it. Then it may continue fine for the remainder of the
reservoir, or it could stop again in 5 minutes, or the next day. This
has happened in all 3 pens I have used it in.

The real disaster was the Polar Black. That did not flow properly in
any of the pens. The Waterman seemed to cope the best, but even that
had skipping etc. At the time I was assured that this only happened in
a few pens, but I had it in all 6 of the above pens! I notice Polar
Balck has been reformulated, so I guess I was not the only one having
"unusual" problems with this ink.

Now I have the extremely long drying time issue. This has also
starting to occur in the walnut ink, but I was already going off that
one due to the funny stopping problems.

It is a pity, Noodler's seem to be the sort of company I like to
support, trying to develop clever innovative product, putting real
effort into getting a good product, but I just don't seem to have had
any luck with them.

I should point out that I have been using FPs continuously for some 30
years, during which time I have not had any problems with the wide
range of inks I have used. Sure some work better in some pens, or may
prefer a wetter or dryer nib, but I could put any ink I had in any pen
and get reliable writing. This included some of the inks people
comment on problems with like the Parker Penman inks. I look after my
pens, so they are regularly and carefully rinsed, I always cap them
immediately after use, etc.

[Brian Ketterling]

So your problems are with Noodler's in general, and aren't just the product
of one particular circumstance... that's too bad. Well, I agree: you should
switch inks! :)

All inks have had flow issues in several of the pens...

It is thick.

It is a pity, Noodler's seem to be the sort of company I like to
support, trying to develop clever innovative product, putting real
effort into getting a good product, but I just don't seem to have had
any luck with them.

I came to "writing" fountain pens recently, after many years of using
drawing pens of various types. I like Noodler's because it comes the
closest to my own sense of what ink should be like (read, waterproof india
ink). Although I have occasionally noticed some of the "problems" (slow
flow, separation, incomplete waterproofness), the effects have been minor,
not obnoxious, in my own experience. It works well most of the time in most
of my pens, so for the time being I'm content to continue funding Nathan
Tardiff's R&D.

But, over time, when I've had problems with tools and materials I've
immediately ditched them and found something better. If you come up with
something good, let us know!

Brian
--

[BL]

Post by Roo

Post by BL
I'd think the water in the ink would evaporate faster than
the surfactants, humectorants, dyes or any other
constituent. -- B

True, but water evaporation would not greatly increase
drying time, surfactants could.

Hi Roo... First, I think it's great that you're researching this a bit.

Second, regarding your point above, I think that water evaporation could
increase drying time if other ingredients in the ink (e.g., dye,
humectorants, surfactants, etc.) dry slower than water and occur in high
enough concentrations. Humectorants (e.g., glycols) are added to the ink to
slow drying time on the nib (among other things). If they slow drying time
on the nib, they're going to slow drying time on the paper. In high enough
concentrations, humectorants and surfactants will decrease surface tension
to the point where the ink spreads into the fibers of the paper causing
feathering. Too much dye can result in a slow drying, smudge prone ink, too.
When you hear people complain of slow drying ink or ink that's prone to
smudge long after its application to paper, it's always a heavily
dye-concentrated ink they're complaining about. Allow water to evaporate
from a bottle of ink and what's left is a more dye-concentrated ink.

Post by Roo
I have done some more experimentation. I found if I took
the bottle of ink and shook it vigorously for 5 minutes the
ink both became a lot darker, a nice solid black, and it
dried quickly. A short shake was not enough. Looking
back through my diary, I have not had as solid a black at
all this year. After being in the pen a few days, the ink has
become a less solid black, and the drying has become
slow again. This suggests the mechanism is not
evaporation, but perhaps some sort of settling or
dissolution effect. I am not going to shake the pen to see
it it comes good in the pen!

I think you're onto something with your "settling, dissolution effect." This
would definitely explain the problems you've experienced with the ink. -- B

[R. Paul Martin]

Post by Roo
....
I have done some more experimentation. I found if I took the bottle of
ink and shook it vigorously for 5 minutes the ink both became a lot
darker, a nice solid black, and it dried quickly. A short shake was
not enough. Looking back through my diary, I have not had as solid a
black at all this year. After being in the pen a few days, the ink has
become a less solid black, and the drying has become slow again. This
suggests the mechanism is not evaporation, but perhaps some sort of
settling or dissolution effect. I am not going to shake the pen to see
it it comes good in the pen!

What you can do with the fountain pen is just tilt it forward and back
several times. This is not a violent motion, it's just to get the ink
moving around and mixing. Tilting the nib down and then up again
several times will force the ink to move around and mix well again.

Noodler's Black will seem to settle out sometimes. I always give my
bottles a vigorous shake before I refill a pen with any inks now. You
can see some other threads in this newsgroup about some of us
discovering this maneuver.

Post by Roo
I think it is time to abandon Noodlers black, this is the last nail in
the coffin. The cellulose reactive ink is a great idea, but the ink
has too many shortcommings for my uses.

Well, it's up to you, but if you need for what you write to be
permanent, it's really the best stuff around.

[Roo]

Post by R. Paul Martin
What you can do with the fountain pen is just tilt it forward and back
several times. This is not a violent motion, it's just to get the ink
moving around and mixing. Tilting the nib down and then up again
several times will force the ink to move around and mix well again.

I sort of do this by default. The way I use my pen at work, I keep it
in my pocket (so nib up), then pull it out to use it (so nib down). In
a typical day I would to this 25-30 times.

Post by R. Paul Martin
Well, it's up to you, but if you need for what you write to be
permanent, it's really the best stuff around.

Or is it. Sure it survives sunlight, clorine bleach etc. but I don't
tend to dunk my notebooks in clorine bleach! One of the issues with
permanency is that it is based on accelerated life tests. So you make
assumptions as to what will cause the failure, and test for that.
However there can be many things which the testers may not have thought
of, or something new can come along. Also lets not forget we are
writing on paper, not the most permanent of substances anyway. What I
do know is that I have examples of things written by my grandparents
which are some 80 or 90 years old and perfectly legible. Whatever they
used works, I have proof. Noodler's has been around for only a few
years, do we really know it will survive? Then again do we need it to
survive!

[Semolina Pilchard]

Post by Roo
Also lets not forget we are
writing on paper, not the most permanent of substances anyway. What I
do know is that I have examples of things written by my grandparents
which are some 80 or 90 years old and perfectly legible. Whatever they
used works, I have proof.

I agree with that. I used to be a Registrar of Births, Deaths and
Marriages and I held the registers back to the beginning of registration in
the 1840s. All the records, even the very earliest, were perfectly clear
and unfaded, most likely as a result of good storage. Though I don't know
how they were stored at first, from the 1870s they were kept in heavy,
steel, insulated safes. Considering that over the 160 years of
registration many different inks would have been used, I would suggest that
permanence resides in storage rather than the quality of the ink. Paper,
as Roo suggests, is more likely to be the cause of loss of old documents
than ink. While the paper in the registers has not deteriorated, that used
for issued certificates has; I've seen birth certificates a mere 70 years
old that were little more than confetti held together by scotch tape,
probably because they were exposed to light, damp and temperature change.

The permanence of fountain pen ink has ceased to be a practical issue
anyway. Very few of us are producing official documents in ink these days.
I produce hand-written case-notes which form part of a "permanent" record,
but legally their lfetime has to be no more than eight years. They'll last
that long if they're not left on a window-sill in bright sunlight,
regardless of which ink I use.

[Roo]

Well the plot thickens. I was tidying up my desk and as I was throwing
out some old sticky notes, I suddenly wondered if this slow drying
effect has an impact on water resistance. So I put the note in a glass
of water and about 1/2 the ink came off. I thought maybe it has
something to do with the sticky note paper. So I tried it with
photocopier paper. Same thing about 1/2 the ink came off (comparing
the relative darkness to the writing which had not gone into the
water). Then I lightly ran my finger across the paper and had a nice
smudge. The writing is still perfectly legible, but some of the ink is
definitely not staying put. When I first got the ink over a year ago
it was completely waterproof (no change in darkness, no smudging)

So whatever this effect is, it is affecting the waterproof quality of
the ink. Bomb-proof? Not in my book, there is a problem here, and I
don't like it. What is going to happen to my existing notes? Anyone
have a contact e-mail for Noodlers technical problems? They should
probably check this out.

[R. Paul Martin]

Post by Roo
Well the plot thickens. I was tidying up my desk and as I was throwing
out some old sticky notes, I suddenly wondered if this slow drying
effect has an impact on water resistance. So I put the note in a glass
of water and about 1/2 the ink came off. I thought maybe it has
something to do with the sticky note paper. So I tried it with
photocopier paper. Same thing about 1/2 the ink came off (comparing
the relative darkness to the writing which had not gone into the
water). Then I lightly ran my finger across the paper and had a nice
smudge. The writing is still perfectly legible, but some of the ink is
definitely not staying put. When I first got the ink over a year ago
it was completely waterproof (no change in darkness, no smudging)

Well, that suggests even more that the ink's dehydrated. It's become
so concentrated that the cellulose reactive dye can't all get to the
paper to react with it before the ink dries out. So you end up with
unreacted ink dried out on top of ink that has reacted. As we all know
Noodler's Black will wash off plastics, skin and other non-cellulose
stuff. So the ink that's sitting in dried out layers will get hit with
water and go back into solution since it hasn't reacted with anything.
Did you let the paper dry and then examine it? I bet you'll find that
everything that was left, including the smudge, is now very permanent.

Post by Roo
So whatever this effect is, it is affecting the waterproof quality of
the ink.

I'm not hearing any evidence of that from your descriptions. I'm
hearing evidence that the ink is overly concentrated due to
dehydration and that such a thick layer of ink is being layed down
that some of it dries out without ever having gotten into contact with
the paper.

Post by Roo
Bomb-proof? Not in my book,

I've never heard anyone say it was bomb-proof. Anyone who's ever had
anything to do with bombs knows that nothing is bomb-proof.

Post by Roo
there is a problem here, and I
don't like it. What is going to happen to my existing notes?

I predict that they'll be just fine and will last the life of the
paper. Again, try those dried out papers that you wetted thoroughly
and see if the ink that got thoroughly wet comes off at all. In my
experience it won't come off.

Post by Roo
Anyone
have a contact e-mail for Noodlers technical problems? They should
probably check this out.

I don't have anything other than what Nathan Tardif has used to post
here, which you can Google. I suspect that they'll tell you the same
thing as I have. But if you get ahold of them do report back on what
happens.

[Roo]

Post by R. Paul Martin
Well, that suggests even more that the ink's dehydrated. It's become
so concentrated that the cellulose reactive dye can't all get to the
paper to react with it before the ink dries out. So you end up with
unreacted ink dried out on top of ink that has reacted. As we all know
Noodler's Black will wash off plastics, skin and other non-cellulose
stuff. So the ink that's sitting in dried out layers will get hit with
water and go back into solution since it hasn't reacted with anything.
Did you let the paper dry and then examine it? I bet you'll find that
everything that was left, including the smudge, is now very permanent.

It is fairly certain that the parts of the ink which have washed away
did not react. After all if they had reacted they would not wash away.
Similarly the parts that stayed put should continue doing so, since
they have reacted.

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo
So whatever this effect is, it is affecting the waterproof quality of
the ink.

I'm not hearing any evidence of that from your descriptions. I'm
hearing evidence that the ink is overly concentrated due to
dehydration and that such a thick layer of ink is being layed down
that some of it dries out without ever having gotten into contact with
the paper.

If it was a thick layer of ink, then I would expect some density. Part
of this whole effect includes a loss of density, that says less ink is
being put down. My own theory is that the surface tension of the ink
has altered preventing it from working into the paper. I have found if
I shake the ink bottle, the ink works fine. After a few days in the
pen is stops behaving once more. I find it very hard to believe that
the ink could dehydrate so much in a capped good quality pen. I am
also not seeing any great change in volume, i.e. the in level seems to
go down as I use it, not while it is sitting there.

There is a difference between waterproof and water-resistant. If half
of the ink washes away, that is water-resistant, not waterproof. You
will note the German ink makers in particular are very careful about
how they use those terms.

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo
Bomb-proof? Not in my book,

I've never heard anyone say it was bomb-proof. Anyone who's ever had
anything to do with bombs knows that nothing is bomb-proof.

Ummmm. Have you read Noodler's marketing hype? They use the term
"bomb-proof" it is not a term I would invent, because as you say
nothing is bomb-proof.

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo
Anyone
have a contact e-mail for Noodlers technical problems? They should
probably check this out.

I don't have anything other than what Nathan Tardif has used to post
here, which you can Google. I suspect that they'll tell you the same
thing as I have. But if you get ahold of them do report back on what
happens.

I will give the address used in the old posts a try, unless someone has
one which is known to be up to date.

[Roo]

Post by Roo

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo
Bomb-proof? Not in my book,

I've never heard anyone say it was bomb-proof. Anyone who's ever had
anything to do with bombs knows that nothing is bomb-proof.

Ummmm. Have you read Noodler's marketing hype? They use the term
"bomb-proof" it is not a term I would invent, because as you say
nothing is bomb-proof.

Oops. Mia Culpa. The current marketing hype uses "bulletproof", a
just as silly term. Funny I remember the term bomb-proof when I bought
the ink. Maybe this just shown how little value I place on marketing
hype!

[Roo]

Post by Semolina Pilchard
The permanence of fountain pen ink has ceased to be a practical issue
anyway. Very few of us are producing official documents in ink these days.
I produce hand-written case-notes which form part of a "permanent" record,
but legally their lfetime has to be no more than eight years. They'll last
that long if they're not left on a window-sill in bright sunlight,
regardless of which ink I use.

Semolina makes a good point here, and one that resonates with my own
thoughts. The only reason I bought Noodler's inks was to get the
waterproofing. My work includes consulting so it is absolutely
important that my diary notes stay legible if the diary becomes wet or
splashed by someones coffee. However a few years later, they are no
longer important. The client has a written report and time sheet, and
the original is no longer referred to. Even my notebooks really only
need to exist long enough for any patent requirements to be satisfied,
and they to will just gather dust or be put into landfill.

[bwesley8]

I'm also working as a consultant (industrial safety and risk management),
and I switched to Noodler's after my grandson dumped about 8 ounces of water
on one of my notebooks(!)... I don't expect anything I write to have really
long-lasting value, just want it readable until I (and my client) are
satisfied that it's no longer necessary to retain.

Post by Roo

Post by Semolina Pilchard
The permanence of fountain pen ink has ceased to be a practical issue
anyway. Very few of us are producing official documents in ink these days.
I produce hand-written case-notes which form part of a "permanent" record,
but legally their lfetime has to be no more than eight years. They'll last
that long if they're not left on a window-sill in bright sunlight,
regardless of which ink I use.

Semolina makes a good point here, and one that resonates with my own
thoughts. The only reason I bought Noodler's inks was to get the
waterproofing. My work includes consulting so it is absolutely
important that my diary notes stay legible if the diary becomes wet or
splashed by someones coffee. However a few years later, they are no
longer important. The client has a written report and time sheet, and
the original is no longer referred to. Even my notebooks really only
need to exist long enough for any patent requirements to be satisfied,
and they to will just gather dust or be put into landfill.

[John B. Egger]

Roo wrote:
The only reason I bought Noodler's inks was to get the

Post by Roo
waterproofing.

This is an old thread, but I just had an experience relevant to it. I
tossed my little Clairefontaine pocket notebook into my daypack and went
for a long walk, during which it started to rain. I knew the pack wasn't
waterproof but didn't remember the pad was in there... when I got home,
the ONLY legible writing that remained in it was that which had been
done in my three Noodler's inks: Eternal Brown, Legal Lapis, and Black.
It was stunning to see a page of green and blue blur, written with other
inks, with a few lines of writing standing out as clear as the day it
had been written.

[Bluesea]

Good testimony.
--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Post by Roo
The only reason I bought Noodler's inks was to get the

Post by Roo
waterproofing.

This is an old thread, but I just had an experience relevant to it. I
tossed my little Clairefontaine pocket notebook into my daypack and went
for a long walk, during which it started to rain. I knew the pack wasn't
waterproof but didn't remember the pad was in there... when I got home,
the ONLY legible writing that remained in it was that which had been done
in my three Noodler's inks: Eternal Brown, Legal Lapis, and Black. It was
stunning to see a page of green and blue blur, written with other inks,
with a few lines of writing standing out as clear as the day it had been
written.
--
--John
Registered Linux User #291592
Delete "no spam"'s from address to reply

[uluS]

Swishmix Nile Ebony waterproof and dry faster.

Bluesea 寫道：

Post by Bluesea
Good testimony.
--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Post by Roo
The only reason I bought Noodler's inks was to get the

Post by Roo
waterproofing.

This is an old thread, but I just had an experience relevant to it. I
tossed my little Clairefontaine pocket notebook into my daypack and went
for a long walk, during which it started to rain. I knew the pack wasn't
waterproof but didn't remember the pad was in there... when I got home,
the ONLY legible writing that remained in it was that which had been done
in my three Noodler's inks: Eternal Brown, Legal Lapis, and Black. It was
stunning to see a page of green and blue blur, written with other inks,
with a few lines of writing standing out as clear as the day it had been
written.
--
--John
Registered Linux User #291592
Delete "no spam"'s from address to reply

[R. Paul Martin]

Post by Roo

Post by R. Paul Martin
What you can do with the fountain pen is just tilt it forward and back
several times. This is not a violent motion, it's just to get the ink
moving around and mixing. Tilting the nib down and then up again
several times will force the ink to move around and mix well again.

I sort of do this by default. The way I use my pen at work, I keep it
in my pocket (so nib up), then pull it out to use it (so nib down). In
a typical day I would to this 25-30 times.

Not the same thing. From your descriptions I suspect that the ink has
become somewhat dehydrated. When it loses too much water I've noticed
that Noodler's will sometimes not flow as easily. Of course, it's
thicker then and that's why it won't flow as well. I've seen Noodler's
Black get "stuck" in the wrong end of a cartridge for a while, but
moving the pen around as I've suggested above always gets it back
down to the nipple and the flow is all right then. You might want to
add a small amount of water to your ink.

Post by Roo

Post by R. Paul Martin
Well, it's up to you, but if you need for what you write to be
permanent, it's really the best stuff around.

Or is it. Sure it survives sunlight, clorine bleach etc. but I don't
tend to dunk my notebooks in clorine bleach!

Although a check washer might expose one of your checks to some.

Post by Roo
One of the issues with
permanency is that it is based on accelerated life tests. So you make
assumptions as to what will cause the failure, and test for that.

Yes, we can't tell for absolute certain that the ink will last for the
life of some of the longer lived papers. But we do know that it will
successfully resist chemical attacks and weathering outdoors for at
least six months at a time. Whether or not it will be there a hundred
years from now is something that we'll all have to wait and see about.
We do know that some other inks seem to fade after a few years.

Post by Roo
However there can be many things which the testers may not have thought
of, or something new can come along. Also lets not forget we are
writing on paper, not the most permanent of substances anyway. What I
do know is that I have examples of things written by my grandparents
which are some 80 or 90 years old and perfectly legible. Whatever they
used works, I have proof.

A lot of the credit for that goes to the old papers. You can still get
that type of paper now for a high price. Most of us are using papers
that are recycled wood pulp. So most of the papers are not the best
anymore; IMO this makes it necessary to use inks which can resist the
degradation of the paper. I bet that there's plenty of writing from
your grandparents' day that no longer exists because the paper is just
gone, and sometimes the paper's degradation is accelerated by the old
inks that were used on them.

Post by Roo
Noodler's has been around for only a few
years, do we really know it will survive? Then again do we need it to
survive!

I need what I write to survive, and Noodler's looks like the best bet
around. There are a lot of inks that will just disappear off a page
from a simple spill of water. As for knowing what will survive for
decades we can only do our best at educated guessing on that score. T'
was always thus.

[Roo]

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo

Post by R. Paul Martin
What you can do with the fountain pen is just tilt it forward and back
several times. This is not a violent motion, it's just to get the ink
moving around and mixing. Tilting the nib down and then up again
several times will force the ink to move around and mix well again.

I sort of do this by default. The way I use my pen at work, I keep it
in my pocket (so nib up), then pull it out to use it (so nib down). In
a typical day I would to this 25-30 times.

Not the same thing. From your descriptions I suspect that the ink has
become somewhat dehydrated. When it loses too much water I've noticed
that Noodler's will sometimes not flow as easily. Of course, it's
thicker then and that's why it won't flow as well. I've seen Noodler's
Black get "stuck" in the wrong end of a cartridge for a while, but
moving the pen around as I've suggested above always gets it back
down to the nipple and the flow is all right then. You might want to
add a small amount of water to your ink.

Except I have had this happen shortly after filling the pen. I always
keep the bottle of ink tightly capped, and open only while actually
filling the pen. I cap the ink before cleaning the pen. This problem
has occurred since the iink was new. So unless Noodler's mixed a bad
batch, it is not dehydration. Simple inversion of the pen does not fix
it. What I have found to work is holding the pen nib down about 30
degrees off vertical and tapping the converter against the side ot the
desk. When this effect happens it is quite stubborn about not
wanting to shift.

Post by R. Paul Martin

Post by Roo

Post by R. Paul Martin
Well, it's up to you, but if you need for what you write to be
permanent, it's really the best stuff around.

Or is it. Sure it survives sunlight, clorine bleach etc. but I don't
tend to dunk my notebooks in clorine bleach!

Although a check washer might expose one of your checks to some.

Resistance to forging and permanence are two different issues.

Post by R. Paul Martin
I need what I write to survive, and Noodler's looks like the best bet
around. There are a lot of inks that will just disappear off a page
from a simple spill of water. As for knowing what will survive for
decades we can only do our best at educated guessing on that score. T'
was always thus.

True, but using materials / processes which have been around long
enough for the failure mechanisms to be known gives one the best chance
of getting that long life. Although sometimes the "fixes" used can
cure one problem but introduce another.

[Brian Ketterling]

Post by Roo
I have some Noodlers Black ink which I bought about 14 months ago. It
has never been a particularly fast drying ink, but in the last few
months it has become incredibly slow.<snip>

That's very strange. I've had various inks (India, liquid ballpoint... not
just FP) behave similarly, but only when it's very humid. In fact, I've
been using Noodlers Black almost exclusively this summer, and it's been very
humid, and I haven't had a problem like that.

You could try blotting to speed up drying, or just switch to a different
ink, and contact Nathan Tardiff to see if there's some reasonably innocuous
household chemical that you could add to modify the ink's properties without
ruining its waterproof quality.

Is the ink skinning over (and thus retarding evaporation) or anything like
that?

Have you tried mixing it thoroughly? Maybe it's separating.

Brian
--

[Brian Ketterling]

You could check the archived alt.collecting.pens-pencils threads here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&q=ink+dries+slow

For example, "The battle over ink dry times and why it exists." with its
advise on mixing Swisher ink with Noodlers.

Brian
--